As readers of this blog are aware, I am not a believer in turning this on and off based on audience. While that is easier around adults, who often are self-absorbed and only really see things that directly impact them, it is different when dealing with children. The question becomes how you maintain your FLR without making your husband look weak either as a man or a father. Now, I do not think that making the choice to be a submissive husband shows any weakness--in fact, quite the opposite. It shows a dedication to his partner and a recognition of her being better able to lead and make choices. That is not weakness, but rather just good sense when that, in fact, is your chosen dynamic or reality. But do the conventions that still permeate society cast shadow on the beauty of that choice? Will older children look to a female led relationship as one of a weak father and overbearing mother or just accept it as the norm for this family? Will younger children model the mother's behavior and expect service from their father in the same or similar way?
In some ways, no matter what the acknowledged dynamic is, women often are responsible for the home and a de facto leader (at least in that space), whether or not anyone openly recognizes it. How many times do fathers say, ask your mother? Whether this is simply disinterest in making a choice, avoidance of a decision that may get overturned or a genuine deference to the mother, it does not really matter because it is ultimately creating an expectation the mother/female will have the final say. Most people would not see a statement such as this as some acknowledgment of female authority or otherwise think this deviated much from the norm. So if it is ok in that instance, why would it transform into weakness just because there is an open acknowledgment of her authority? I do not think it has to, but I struggle with making sure he does not feel that way and does not become marginalized in some way by the fact we openly agree I am in charge.
I am also not a believer in ultimate female superiority. Each relationship is unique and there are certain people who simply are better suited for a female led dynamic. So my take on how we do this does not stem from a place of believing men are inferior or born to serve. This creates some complication in allowing a submissive husband to serve and take direction, but without impacting or undercutting his masculinity. For me, this manifests in my husband remaining an active partner and being responsible for essentially running our house. I do expect him to serve me and defer to me generally, but not to wait on me hand and foot, if that makes sense. Of course, this creates its own set of issues because it is not per se black and white. And as we get more comfortable with this, it now raises questions as to its impact on our family dynamic.
Our daughters are younger and are watching this relationship take shape. As children are little sponges, I am observing how they are adapting to this dynamic in almost hyper speed. As we spent this weekend together, I watched each of them ask only him for certain things--juice, snacks, whatever. They tended not to ask me to do anything for them, but not in a disrespectful way. More that they simply expected their father to be the one to assist them. Part of that is just what dads do and he has always been active in their care, but it seemed more that they were aware of the fact he is the one to go to for these types of things exclusively now, whereas I am the one to come to for permission or a decision on something.
As we talked about that shift later in the evening, my husband made the excellent point that he did not want to end up a short order cook. Just being given orders by an army of little females and essentially becoming a servant to them just because he is submissive to me. I imagine other people in this lifestyle struggle with the same thing. And it is something that requires real thought and attention, as it does not make sense to hide it from your children if you are really committed to this, but it obviously raises questions of allowing them to be part of this when they do not necessarily have the cognitive understanding to process its complexities.
During this conversation, I reminded him that in terms of service, it is really only to me. As part of that, I do expect he will care for our children and attend to their needs, but not in the same way. Specifically, I think it is appropriate when he asks if anyone needs anything before he sits down, but I do not expect him to get up multiple times because each of them decides halfway through dinner that she wants milk or juice or whatever she did not want five minutes before when he asked. I also want them to remain self-sufficient, and while I get to enjoy the privilege of a drink always being brought to me, I do not think they have earned that yet. His service to me is a trade off of what we do, whereas they do not contribute in that manner or take on the responsibilities I have so it should necessarily be different. He can pour them a drink, but my expectation is that most of the time, they will walk over to get it. It is this balance that I have to further articulate/explore so that we do not hide what we do or that I am in charge, but that he remains a respected man and father. I do not believe these are mutually exclusive at all, but there is some work that needs to go into how this is presented and represented to children to avoid that. And while it is easier to address these subtleties when dealing with getting up from dinner or who gets juice, it undoubtedly will be much harder as this continues and they grow into young women.
At the end of the day, it is important for him to be strong in everyone's eyes without shifting our power dynamic or introducing ambiguity either between us or within our family. Because our children are younger, I sense that they will just acclimate easier and come to expect who makes the decision without second thought because it is really all they know. But I want to do it in a way that does not undercut his role as a father or a man. For people who are open about this (either in word or deed) in front of their children, please share how you do it and how it has impacted the family dynamic.
I struggle with this as well. We have almost the exact opposite dynamic in our house (I'm the submissive and the only woman with two young boys). And we are also conscious of what our boys take from our D/s relationship. I am still to be respected and will not jump to demands of 'more milk' or disrespectful behavior. I agree that it is something that needs to be monitored and constantly adjusted as they grow. I will be curious how this continues for you as well.
ReplyDeleteThanks for posting. I would be curious to know how much you let them see, if you are comfortable sharing. Does he directly order you around? are they aware (maybe they are not old enough) to know he is in charge?
ReplyDeleteYou touched on exactly what I am writing for tomorrow. In my opinion, being the submissive partner does not automatically turn me into a maid or housewife. Just as when we were a male led relationship, household duties are divided based on available time and fairness. That hasn't changed. Only now, I get punished for sloppy work or failing to complete a task. The list of things hasn't changed and I don't expect it will.
ReplyDeleteThe key, as far as I can tell, is that my wife can decide to have me do something without worrying if I agree to do it. But she can't just dump all the domestic chores on me. I think it is way too easy for people to equate being in charge to being immune from mundane tasks. True, some people (hopefully the submissive) want this. But FLR doesn't require such a switch.
Thanks, CagedLion. I agree engaging in a FLR should not just be a reallocation of chores. Obviously people have different levels of service performed, but the notion this is just one of service or task performance misses so much of what can be good about these types of relationships. For me, it is probably the smallest part.
DeleteAn excellent, thought provoking, post. Most couples we know seem to do what works best for them. My children always knew that their mother was in charge. This was out of necessity as I worked away from home about half the month and we were concerned that it would upset the family dynamic if I came home and suddenly just took over everything often not know how she had handled things while I was away. Our larger FLR just blossomed from that. She has always been dominant in the bedroom and in our personal relations with each other. Now that I have retired, our grandchildren routinely see me doing housework, cooking, cleaning, and serving. None of them have ever made a comment about it even though the dynamic in their own household is completely different. It's all they have ever known from us but we don't allow them to take advantage of my service. I am encouraged to see younger women taking control of their households and relationship and think it bodes well for the future. My spouse is carefully counseling our 18 yr old granddaughter to try and make her understand that she should expect the best from the young men in her life and that she deserves to be treated with respect. Her mother's married relationship is a disaster in that regard. Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts with us.
ReplyDeleteThanks for posting, Wishful4! I hope that you will continue to contribute in the future. I think for many marriages, this is the better dynamic. Not because of an inherent dominance or superiority, but because clear boundaries with respect to choices, decisions and roles as well as with general expectations clears up many of the problems and fights most people I know have. And teaching young women (in whatever dynamic they choose) to demand respect and love is an excellent message.
DeleteWhen you say they do not take advantage of your service, do you still tend to perform tasks like getting drinks or things of that nature? Or does the dynamic change when others are there?
I very much enjoyed reading the post.
ReplyDeleteWhen we adopted the flm our children were already in college. We did not have to deal with many of the same issues you are dealing with. My daughter, however, like you has two small children. Like you, she wants the children to respect their father as a person of authority within the home. In real life achieving the right balance is not always easy. Some men handle responsibility better than others.
Love, Kathy
Thanks, Kathy. I agree the younger dynamic can be trickier. But, it also presents the opportunity for creating our own "status quo." There absolutely should be a chain of command where the husband remains in authority vis a vis the children, but still under the FLR dynamic overall. That feels like the healthiest way to establish a female led household without compromising parental respect.
DeleteWhen I was a child my mother took care of the household and obviously served her husband at meals and at all other times. That male-dominant dynamic was accepted widely in other families I was familiar with, and it was reinforced by endless television shows and movies and other cultural institutions. I never thought a thing was wrong, even though, thinking back, she was acting as a selfless servant or even slave. What tipped the scale and caused me to question things were those times when my father treated her with open and undisguised disrespect. He was rude on a regular basis, verbally abusive much too often, and physically abusive at times. And that disrespect and abuse stays with me to this day. I think it is possible to be in a subservient role and have dignity. I saw it with my own eyes. But when that dignity is attacked, as my father sometimes did, then problems arise. Now that I'm an adult, I have a strong need to be submissive to my Goddess. The reasons for this are complex, but always in the back of my mind are those moments when my loving mother had her dignity attacked. Short answer: in a loving relationship, serving the head of household is honorable and good. The operative word is "loving." You treat your subservient husband with respect, and your daughters will pick up on that. They will see that you love him. And no doubt they will respect their father far more than I respect mine.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Brian. I absolutely agree that respect is key. Both from the dominant partner and from the submissive one. While the dominant has the responsibility to maintain respect and cherish the gift that is given, it also means the submissive must command respect in his or her own right when possible. I want my husband to expect the children to respect him, just as I expect them to respect me. If they sense they can walk all over him simply because I am in charge, it is not good for anyone.
DeleteI am sorry this still impacts you as to your mother. I am sure that meant and means a lot to her to have a son so cognizant of her dignity.
I do not live in a FLR relationship, but in most relationships one parent is the primary care giver- regardless of who is the dominate partner. If you are consistent and delegate authority to your husband, you should not have any more problems than most. Think about the military, subordinates cannot jump rank because they don't like the decision made by their immediate superior. If your husband makes a decision, even one that you may not make, you support his decision. Children like/need consistency, so if you want your husband to change his position, do it behind closed doors and make sure that there is a time lapse between your discussion with your husband and the implementation of the change. The one major rule my wife and I had with our children was that they could not go to the other parent if they did not like the other parent's decision. Our kids quickly realized that I was more permissive but unbending in my decisions. My wife on the other hand was more restrictive, but could be negotiated with. It became a game (between my wife and me) to see which parent the kids would go to for a decision. Only for safety reasons or the discovery that they tried to play one parent off the other, would we countermand the other spouses' decision- with a clear explanation of why a decision was being countermanded. While our kids tried their best to be feral, they turned out pretty well. One last thought, I believe that if you and your husband actively show love towards each other, your kids will adjust to almost any relationship.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the post. I agree this is not really that distinct from the "normal" tribulations of vanilla marriage or child rearing. It is actually why I really do not believe this path is that much different than most.
DeleteI can only speak for my wife and are family the kids and and grandkids see her as the authority in our marriage. She always drives everywhere we go and I sit in the passenger seat it has never seemed weird to our family. When the kids want money or permission to do something they always ask her.The kids will still come to me and will ask my opinion on things that maybe only a dad could answer. The kids see the wonderful harmony my wife and I have in our marriage with much love and respect for each other.I know are kids feel very secure with are family and what might seem different to other families is just normal for ours. Hope this helps answer your post... RR
ReplyDeleteThanks, RR. Making it just part of the routine is exactly what I am hoping for. I also find it interesting the way different people view acts of dominance or submission. I, for example, would prefer him to drive. I exercise my control by choosing not to.
DeleteMs Rhiannon,
ReplyDeleteRaising our children, I was their father and held that position in their eyes. The fact that their mother was in over all authority did not make me less in authority over them. My daughter was in charge of our son only because she was older, not because of gender.
I did not defer to my daughter untill she became a dominant wife in her own marriage. I now give her the same respect as I do my wife and my son's wife. Though I, my son, and my son-in-law have wives who are dominant and have authority over us we are never treated with disrespect. Just loving authority.
Thanks for sharing! I think the critical piece is not allowing for a leap frog so to speak between the children and the mother; keeping the father in his authoritative position with respect to the children, irrespective of his submission to the female.
ReplyDelete